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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Nov 7, 2006 6:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

The argument about Kimock's influences must look at the following


Furthur (2000): The Other Ones
Bob Weir
Mickey Hart
Bill Kreutzmann
Bruce Hornsby
Mark Karan
Steve Kimock
Alphonso Johnson

Furthur (1998): The Other Ones
Bob Weir
Mickey Hart
Phil Lesh
Bruce Hornsby
Mark Karan
Steve Kimock
John Molo
Dave Ellis

Note that Kimock is one of the two "Jerrys" in each configuration. The thing with TOOS is that the guitarists each sounded like Jerry from different times.

Maybe Kimock didn't listen to a lot of Jerry growing up, but he had to hear a lot of it to play with TOOS and to emulate Jerry as well as he did.

And, btw, if I were in Kimock's shoes--trying to establish my own identity while taking up a Jerry role--I'd deny the influence too. It's tough to get pegged as a Jerry clone, or a Hendrix clone, or a (fill in the blank) clone.

Damn fine guitarist either way.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 7, 2006 7:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

After playing guitar for 35 years I can agree to disagree with Kimock's appraisal that Garcia was not an influence. Several years ago, I was sitting in with a band and a friend who also plays mentioned that I had "lifted" a lot of licks from Dicky Betts. We weren't playing ABB tunes, but apparently he heard something stylistically that matched Dicky's playing.

The fact is that I never studied or made any attempt to duplicate Bett's gutar work. I did however listen to a ton of ABB music and liked the musical sensibilities that existed within the context of their songs. Apparently these sensibilities and the way improvisation works within the framework of a song were things that had a natural fit with the way I approached playing. So while there was no coherant theft of style going on, I had adopted subconsciously this very practical, and to me, appealing approach to soloing.

Now, when you talk about Kimock playing songs night after night that were written by Garcia and failing to be influenced on some level, I would say it's near impossible. Especially within the framework of some very unique chord progressions. While Garcia's technique and influence might be mitigated, there's no way around playing within the body of the song and sooner or later you'll cross paths with Papa Ghost.

If someone told me they heard Garcia's influence in my playing, I'd take it as a compliment.






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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 7, 2006 8:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

i do not disagree with that assessment. my only point in an earlier thread was that Kimock never mentioned Garcia as an influence while growing up or learning. I agree with the obvious that, post-99/TOO, he picked up on Garcia's style while learning to play GD music. It would be impossible not to. But that was never my point.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 7, 2006 8:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

Sorry Dire...got in on the tail end of that debate without appropriate preparation. My bad.

Too busy contemplating the relative merits of a "Beaver Moon."

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 7, 2006 8:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

Please don't apologize Earl!! I agree with what you said. My comment of "that was never my point" was in no means directed towards you - just a general comment regarding my earlier discussion in an earlier thread. Hope you didn't take that the wrong way - my apologies to you if my wording came across poorly.

And, ahhhh, the Beaver Moon!! It just has to have many "relative merits." even if it doesn't, its great to joke around with it while having a few beers with the neighbors and looking up at the night sky :)

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Poster: patkelley Date: Nov 7, 2006 11:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

I'm sorry for starting an acrimonious thread! I just though and think that it's pretty obvious Kimock has picked up some Garcia, whether he knows it or not.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 7, 2006 11:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

its not an acrimonious thread. i agree he picked up some Garcia influence during/after his gigs with the other ones. he still plays stella blue instrumental at some shows.

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Poster: patkelley Date: Nov 7, 2006 12:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

that probably sounds nice. can I find it on here?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 7, 2006 3:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

i cant quote any dates, sorry - but they are out there especially 2003-2005 - if i come across an acutal date i'll be sure to let you know my friend. sorry i am no help at the moment -

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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Nov 7, 2006 12:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

When the Dead became the Other Ones, they came out of the gates trying to build on the remains of the former band. Look at the set lists. Listen to the eleven on the cd.

At the time my take was that with the aging, ailing, nodding Jerry gone, there was new life being blow into the belly of the beast with the two young hired gunslingers. But the boys--this being only a few years after Jerry's passing--were still locked into a grateful dead mindset musically, and surely they looked to these two guitarists to fill the vacated Jerry role. Mind you, no one could ever BE Garcia, but these guys sounded quite a lot like him in many respects--sound and style. I can imagine that they were chosen in part for this reason. Of course, they picked up on Jerry's style by playing in the band. But that doesn't just happen overnight.

I do not mean to imply that they aren't original or superb guitarists, by the way. I write only of the setting and the background.

I can't tell you the number of Jazz musicians who swear they aren't influence by Coltrane or Miles or Roscoe Mitchell, et al. But it's in there. Here, we have the tradition of the jam band of which the dead were the forefathers. Hard to get away from Jerry's playing.

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 7, 2006 3:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

gotta give a kudos also on the eleven from the Other Ones disc - how jawdropping is that jam!! better than Anything Garcia did - post 77. That jam just rolls your eyes back into your head. If anyone doesn't havethat disc - would be happy to share - great live disc.

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Poster: orchiddoctor Date: Nov 8, 2006 5:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

And you can hear all the words!

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Poster: patkelley Date: Nov 7, 2006 7:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

Alphonso Johnson's incredible, don't you think?

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Nov 7, 2006 8:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

agreed!! any idea what Alphonso is up to these days??

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Poster: patkelley Date: Nov 7, 2006 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

His website (www.embamba.com) lists no scheduled appearances. Maybe he's recording or producing or just smokin mad herb.

This post was modified by patkelley on 2006-11-07 19:14:24

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Nov 7, 2006 1:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

I first heard Kimock in the mid 80's with Zero. Sounded like a JAZZ guitarist to me. Yes, Jerry played Jazz too but to me the thing that makes, or I guess it's made huh?, Jerry so great wasn't his technical abilities imo but rather his completely unique tone. Face it, when Jerry played you knew it was Jerry. I can't say I'm completely sold that Kimock sounds like he was " obviously" influenced by Jerry just because he plays with the same type of understateness and subtlety. I'm not saying he wasn't, I'm just saying that it isn't nescessarily " obvious" to me. Here's something to consider in this debate:

Jerry said Steve was one of his most favorite unknown guitarists - I have SERIOUS doubts that Jerry would think that HE was great much less someone he thought that sounded like him. So to me either Jerry didn't himself here the influence OR it was subliminal to him.

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 7, 2006 8:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Steve Kimock and Jerry debate

it's amazing. The million dollar question was, "who could fill Jerry's shoes after his death"? Not only did get Kimock, but also Jimmy herring. Both were awesome and they still found a way to screw it up.